Why Villanova can’t build an arena/stadium

Posted by Brian Ewart on February 14, 2012 · Under Article · 113 Comments 

Villanova'a main lot is the subject of a proposed campus expansion and beautification project

Villanova’s campus has always presented a beautiful panorama along Lancaster Avenue, but turn your head 180 degrees and all that you will see is an ugly parking lot. That parking lot has been the central focus of the university’s latest expansion project, with dormitories, retail shops and a new performing arts center along the main concourse that would create a more eye-pleasing view on the other side of the road. Villanova would keep more students on campus in the plan, rather than having them live in apartments elsewhere along the Main Line.

Of course, the plan has not received the support of campus neighbors.

Villanova distributed a 16-page booklet to attendees at last night’s Radnor Township Board of Commissioners meeting, describing the project and the $50.99 million economic impact the project would have on the local community. Local residents filled the town hall meeting for the Villanova presentation.

Described by Main Line Media News:

Typical was a version of “Thank you for the presentation. It’s great and I support it. But, it’s too tall, too narrow and too close to the road. The parking garage is on the wrong side of Rt. 30 and there will be a traffic back-up between 8 and 8:30 every morning,” followed by, “Why do [students] need cars on campus if they are on campus?”

A big part of the discussion among officials was whether or not Villanova should include a pedestrian bridge or a tunnel to ease the flow of students crossing Lancaster Avenue — a valid discussion that should probably take place whether or not the greater project is constructed.

Villanova's proposed site plan model

Radnor Township locals will oppose almost any building that Villanova wants to do. It won’t matter what it is or what the positives are — the people of Radnor Township will always find the negatives. When Villanova was breaking ground on the new law school building, after all approvals were granted and permits issued, the university’s neighbors were still trying to fight against its construction.

Without a doubt, Villanova will face the same opposition, or perhaps more, if they ever proposed building a 10,000-seat arena or a 40,000-seat stadium on campus. It won’t matter how comprehensive the plan is, or whether the university accounts for everything from traffic to the impact of bright stadium lights on the community, someone will object.

There is no easy solution, either. Villanova either needs alumni and friends to buy homes in Radnor Township to flood the community with positive sentiments or a brand new campus in a more welcoming municipality far from the Main Line.

Neither is likely to happen.

For the foreseeable future, building projects on Villanova’s Main Line campus or on any adjacent properties they acquire will be difficult or impossible to get off of the ground. That is the reality that the university has to live with and it is the reality that pushes some basketball games to the Wells Fargo Center and that is ultimately forcing football games to move to PPL Park in Chester.

UPDATE 2/15 – Patch.com contributed the following list of Township Commissioners’ reactions to the Villanova plan:

Kevin Higgins: Asked for the school to commit to capping its student enrollment numbers.

Don Curley: Thinks the project has “great merit to it, planning wise,” but would encourage traffic calming on Lancaster Avenue.

John Fisher: “I’m going to be looking for anything and everything you can do to reduce the impact on adjacent neighbors.”

John Nagle: “I fundamentally like plan, but have a lot of concerns that need to be hashed out.”

Jim Higgins: He said it looks like a wonderful project, so “What took you so long?” and strongly encouraged a pedestrian bridge over Lancaster Avenue.

Commissioner Elaine Paul Schaefer has recused herself from discussing or voting on the project because her husband’s company sells a small amount of athletic equipment to the school.

Patch.com also provided a video of the presentation and ensuing discussion. A formal plan will be submitted next month, accounting for some of the concerns raised this week.

  • VocalALUM

    They drive me crazy.  I can assure you these people have not lived in the area since the mid 1800′s and thus knew the University was there prior to their arrival.  I hope Villanova fights hard.  We have kowtowed to the Township on nearly every project.  Time to start fighting the good fight.  

  • jetf

    This is what happens when your school is located in a wealthy area…the residents have power and they are not afraid to throw it around.  I dont understand their objections to building more dorms on campus, isnt that what they want?  The residents are always complaining about how disruptive we upperclassmen are in the surrounding area and now they object when Villanova tries to move us on-campus? I dont understand.

  • LM 92

    What I find funny is, most of the students that live “off campus”, live in apartments, or if they are in houses, they are nestled in the one or 2 blocks just off of Lancaster East of campus (near Kelly’s, etc). My point is these students are not living “where the money is”, where the high-end homes are…..it’s in the lower income areas (obviously, as students, can’t live in the higher end areas).
    So, then is it the “rich” neighbors that oppose or is it, the more “average” or blue collar working people that live where the students live that oppose the University’s projects.
    Maybe the solution is to completely close Lancaster Avenue through campus, permanently….haha

  • VocalALUM

    Here is a funny one from the past.  Scroll to 2:28 and listen to Mr. Bear explain why there is a deer population issue in Lower Merion.  Gotta love it.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=7122511

    Villanova is sooo bad!!!!

  • Jimdribble

    It is absurd how Radnor Township so much runs the show at Villanova. In most other college towns it is the other way around. Towns are struggling for revenue you would think they would want something if they were offered a small piece of it.  I think the University is not aggressive enough with the township and that they back down to easy. 

  • Rand137

    This is not unique to Radnor Township, NIMBYS exist everywhere (not in my back yard) – you just have to strategically deal with them and get town leaders in a position to focus on the value of your project and give them the courage to vote yes. This is done through major political pressure and contributions. Villanova’s project should be an easy sell, it benefits everyone except the slumlords who rent off campus housing to the students and abuse them in the process, through excessive rent and other silly charges. Tunnel or overhead walkway shoul be a slam dunk.

  • Anonymous

    I believe Villanova has an opportunity to solve some of their problems by purchasing the land and facilities once Bonner closes at the end of the school year.  I would use this land as a satelite campus much like BC has with Newton. However, I would also use this land to build a modest football stadium and dorms.  Upper Darby / Springfield is much friendlier to the economic benefits that come along with this idea than our friends in Rosemont.  This would also supply a decent walk up opportunity for the football team to sell tickets as opposed to what they have now.  I believe the Archdiocese would welcome selling the land to another Catholic institution. 

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    He doesn’t even make any sense. Villanova hasn’t expanded the size of the campus since building West Campus in 1994. All other construction has been squeezed into the current campus footprint.

  • Damost

    What about building a stadium in a nearby town?   The real estate is probably cheaper.    What do you think of a stadium along the river in either Manayunk,   Conshohocken or Norristown?    All three locations have highway access and a train to the city.  

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    Building an on-campus stadium isn’t a complete economic drain because the university can use it for other events (graduations, other sports, etc.), but an off-campus stadium isn’t feasible to operate for a single college football team. You would spend $100million up-front and then more millions annually to host 6 or 7 events. 

    Once you get off-campus, you really need a co-tenant, which is why PPL Park makes sense for football.

  • Barney Rubble

    The University has been lazy acquiring land in past decades.   Go look at the maps and pictures from the 40′s-50′s-60′s and see how much land adjacent to the campus was undeveloped. 
    Don’t get me started on how the University stood with their heads up their a%% while a former small Christian Jr College campus complete with dorms, cafeteria, classrooms, outdoor, recreation areas, and gymnasium sat vacant next to west campus in the 1990′s.   Now you got a Muslim jihad group in there and the local residents are crapping their pants.    
    That would have been a perfect location for the new Law school to be built.  You could have used the historic Estate House aka Boone Hall as the Library or administrative offices. The Law students would have everything they needed just outside the west campus boundary.    http://www.fiesite.org/fie2/photo.htm     
    That would have opened up the current Law School property for alternative development. 

    The Main Campus is on the edge of Radnor Twp..    IF property becomes available over the County line, we should be all over it.  (Rosemont College isn’t even in Radnor.).

    How much non-residential land is available directly adjacent to Rte 476 on the Archbishop Carroll side of the highway?   Isn’t it all commercial properties and schools in that vicinity?  
    Put the WAWA Arena right up against the Highway and run the tracks right under the Concourse entrance so people can exit at the Arena directly and cut down on needed parking.

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    Is there even enough land to build a football stadium there? 

  • Ailurophile

    Good article.  Just curious:  if they put buildings on the current parking lots, where do they put the parking…does the plan include a (previously township opposed?) parking garage?

    Any chance of posting a picture of the architect’s/artist’s rendering of what the developed site would look like;  or will the University be posting the full plan on their site?

  • LM 92

    from the “model” picture in the story above, it appears the Performing Arts Center will be on the corner of Ithan/Lancaster across from Jake Nevin FH. and the parking garage will be behind it, and bump up to the “flying coffin” (train line just before you get to South Campus). Earlier models (from the “master plan” of 2008) had showed parking garages behind the buildings that would contain the dorms/storefronts, with about the front 1/2 of the parking lot adjacent to Lancaster containing the buildings, and the back 1/2 closest to the train having the parking garages (which would make sense). I think they’re going to need all that parking to match what the current parking capacity is. 7pm basketball game on a Night school night and they are at capacity.

  • Barney Rubble

    “…Gothic “gateway” to campus and include two residence halls, a parking garage, and a performing-arts center.”  

    http://articles.philly.com/2012-02-06/news/31030390_1_villanova-students-main-campus-construction-project  
            >> “Villanova this year reconfigured its core campus north of Lancaster Avenue to eliminate cars and spruce up dining halls and outdoor areas.
    The latest project calls for some stores and a bistro on the first floor of the midrise residence halls, but Valosky said those would be restricted to students, staff, and alumni.
    The dorms, which would be built on the larger of the two parking lots that straddle Ithan Avenue, would have the same gray stone Gothic architecture as the rest of the campus. The school already has 25 residence halls, ranging in age from 15 to 60 years.   Besides suites, the halls would feature gyms, conference rooms, a courtyard, and an arch connecting the two buildings.
    The performing-arts center would be on the other side of Ithan Avenue, with the parking garage behind it.”  << 

  • VocalALUM

    Absolutely Brian, the guy is out in left field.  Just goes to show that the information operations of the NIMBY types are far superior to ours.  

  • Southoftheborder

    YES!

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    The parking garage would be well-hidden in this plan and not visible from the roads. 

  • Postole

    This happens every time Villanova wants to build something.  The township always complains, but in the end, Villanova usually gets to build what they want.  When Villanova built West Campus, they were restricted from building anything on West Campus for 20 years (that mandate still has a few more years on it and it also restricted the West Campus apartments to three stories).  They fought the new law school, but it was built.  It is only a matter of time before they agree to the project.  Below is a link from The President’s Office with the artists designs.  This is a great project and what the University needs to grow.  

    http://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/president/initiatives/masterplan/ResidenceHallDevelopment.html

    http://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/president/initiatives/masterplan/ResidenceHallDevelopment/Concepts.html

    http://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/president/initiatives/masterplan/ResidenceHallDevelopment/ProjectQuestionsAnswers.html

  • Anonymous

    There are currently 1,700 between Pike Lot and Main Lot.  With the new parking garage and the new parking lot behind the new dormitories, there would be a combined 2,100 spots.  

  • Clarence Curry Jr

    Additionally needed, and perhaps more important is a quality Division 1 Football facility.

  • Anonymous

    Archbishop Carroll would have been the best choice but I think Bonner would work out nicely.  One stumbling block is that they are trying to raise money to keep their school open!!!  I guess they didn’t get the memo detailing my plan.  My dad is a proud alum of both Bonner and VU, I will see if he can spearhead my effort.

  • Fanovak

    Facetiously (is that spelled right?),  I would also propose dropping Lancaster Ave, ala the Vine Street Expwy. and then we could build right over it.  Kind of our own version of the Big Dig!! 

  • Barney Rubble

    22 yrs ago and it sounds like nothing at all has changed with the neighbors.
    http://articles.philly.com/1990-02-11/news/25882702_1_campus-security-villanova-students-villanova-campus   

  • Jkelly3537

    If the archdiocese were to close Carroll, it would be the answer to virtually all of Villanova’s problems with on campus housing and football upgrades

    I really thought this was going to happen..

  • Ailurophile

     Thanks all…very informative.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks for the article Brian…For those of us not as well versed in local politics, can you please differentiate between local who oppose almost any building project and those that have the power to actually stop a proposed building project…thanks.

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    Just a quick reminder that Archbishop Carroll is also in Radnor Township and would probably result in a lot of the same zoning nonsense.

  • LM 92

    Postole….thanks….just looks like it wouldn’t fit.

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    Undeveloped land isn’t necessarily land that doesn’t belong to someone with plans for it. Acquiring land on the Main Line has been expensive for a while.

    The land on the other side of County Line is even more expensive. Have you seen the houses over there? Just a hop across the road from west campus… it’s not even McMansions, there are full-fledged palaces over there. Not the solution, IMHO.

  • Barney Rubble

    The land they bought up around the stadium is where a Football facility would likely be built once they determine the size and scope of the project. 

    If they put it behind the end zone area, it could be somehing like the state of the art Lafayette “Bouger Varsity House” that opened a few yaers ago.  They also lacked extra space due to the residential neighborhood buffering their stadium.so they squeezed it into the endzone area.        
    http://www.goleopards.com/view.gal?id=10759   

    http://www.goleopards.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/060107aah.html    

    Would be fitting  if they left a small wing of the building for the Track & Field teams who have brought so much attention to the school over the years.
     
    The first Football coach in the history of the Villanova program was legendary MIke Murphy who is one of the most influential Track trainer & coach in history of USA T&F.  

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    Locals would be annoyed that Lanc would be temporarily closed for that, but that’s actually a really great idea that would allow Villanova to get a step closer to a “walking  campus.”

    Might also help traffic too by eliminating some traffic lights.

  • Barney Rubble

    Doesn’t Carroll have close to 1000 students?   That’s enormous Catholic enrollment today’s world.   It’s not closing for a few more decades.     

  • LM 92

    This looks fantastic. The visual difference in the view driving on Lancaster, going West and first view of campus, makes it seem double in size, yet, more like a “main street, usa”….beautiful!!!! 
    GET ‘ER DONE!!!!

  • Jkelly3537

    Barney,  Carroll’s enrollment at  1,000 pales in comparison to Cardinal O’hara listed as over 9,000 for 2010-2011. I think this school was seriously looked at for closure.

  • Gunner

    Keep your hands off Carroll.

  • Dave

    I have given up on hopes for on campus sports at Nova.  (1)  Like it or not, the social aspect of tailgating is important for college sports.  Our current poor facilities on campus are unrelated to the tailgating policy that has shown no leniency since the 1980s.  (2)  The Pavilion is a joke and was at its opening.  Goofy design, 6,500 capacity, poorly located student section.  At the time we joked that we were building new facilities that were less than UPenn.  Township limits on capacity was the word.  (3)  Parking, access, and the Township interference can’t be overcome.  So…  Move basketball to Wells Fargo.  Move football to PPL.  Not convenient for students, but at least the grounds are not owned by Nova so the tailgating rules are not run by Nova.  Buses are cheaper than a stadium.  
    I can’t believe a stadium at a current HS site would work.  Carroll would be great.  Bonner would be worse for access, I think.  O’Hare would be OK.  But if they were Nova acquired, I’m afraid we would screw it up, make it too small, and enforce rules that would keep fans away.  Better to use 3rd party facilities.   

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EWBRCXF3ETHRA5IA2JWVI5QKDY wildcat07

    My only comment is ask DePaul how well having all their games off campus has worked.  Attendance has been poor not only because of the team’s record but also the long trek to get there from campus (granted they don’t appear to have a rail connection like we do).

  • Dave

    I agree the best scenario would be on campus.  A basketball only facility of 12,000 on campus.  A student section wrapping around court in the floor level. And a 50,000 seat football stadium.  I have just given up that it can be done at Nova.  The Township will never let it happen, and half of Nova probably doesn’t want it.  For basketball especially the on campus facility would be awesome.

  • bill

    Could an arena be constructed underground for basketball similar to a shopping mall or train station?

  • G_Dizzle

    A performing Arts Center? Really? Can we bring back Fr. Dobbin, because Fr. Peter is the reason we are not playing Big East football.

    Not donating a dime to the construction of Father Peter’s child, knew this was coming back in 2006 when he became President…

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    Sure, but the excavation would add a ton of money to the project. You’d need to ask someone with knowledge of underground mall construction costs to figure out what it would cost.

    The bigger issue is traffic and parking — that’s what will cause Radnor to get upset. Theoretically you could knock down everything on that Athletics block on campus, excavate and put an arena underground and a giant stadium for football above. You’d still need to figure out how to get 40,000 people there on a football-saturday (or Wednesday in the Big East) and where to park them once they arrived.

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    You have some moral opposition to the PAC? Or to Performing Arts generally? The two projects are not connected according to everything I have heard. Football and PAC is not an either/or, Villanova would ideally like both. 

  • Barney Rubble

    Cardinal O’Hara has nowhere near that many.  You are off by over 7000 students.   No High School in the entire state of PA has that kind of enrollment.  The Wikipedia listing is just a joke that some 14yr old put on there… lol

    Here is a random list of the largest PUBLIC HS in the country and it doesn’t have anyone close to 9000. .
    http://high-schools.com/report/public-high-schools-list.html   

    There is only approx 16,000 HS students attending Catholic HS in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia.  That number includes a considerable drop over the last 5 years.

    Cardinal O’Hara 2009-10 PIAA OFFICIAL Total Enrollment = 1,102 
    (that’s a 3 grade total for 9th through 11th grade that is used for athletic classifications)  http://www.piaa.org/schools/directory/details.aspx?ID=12480 
    That puts O’Hara at approx 1450 mark for 4 grades.  They are AAA for Football which isn’t even the largest classification in the state.  

    Archbishop Carroll 2009-10 PIAA OFFICIAL Total Enrollment = 795
    That puts them at approx 1050 for 4 grades. 

    Any Catholic High School around 1000 students would only be considered for closing over geographic issues or a dilapitated aging facility.  

  • Barney Rubble

    Just some Bonner-Predergast info on their closing. 
    They are the biggest school by enrollment at current 939 but are their registration has been dropping quickly from over 1800 kids in 2000 to a projected less than 750 kids in 2014.  Their aging facilities are the most expensive to keep up.
    I didn’t know Bonner was an Augustinian High School. 
     
    http://www.faithinthefuture.com/schools/116011621164-2/ 

    + Enrollment has declined for 11 consecutive years, decreasing by 865 students or 52%

    + With plant costs of over $900,000 per year, Bonner-Prendergast buildings are the most expensive to operate, while only 31% of the school is being utilized. 

    The other HS closings: 
    http://www.faithinthefuture.com/high-schools/     

    =====================================  

    What if Villanova bids on Carroll land that buffers the Campus and then helps subsidize a new HS being built on Bonner property?  
    Bill Gates…are you out there??  lol   

  • Barney Rubble

    You have to have tennants to share an Arena of 10k or bigger.

    And if you are bringing professional sports (minor league hockey/arena2 football/KIXX soccer, etc), then the arena can’t be on-campus unless there is a physical buffer with the student housing.  

    They sponsor Advanta Tennis at the Pavillion but it’s during the summer when majority of students are not around.   (and Tennis fans aren’t exactly hockey/arena football hooligans except when Anna Kournakouva came to Villanova…lol)  

    July, 2010  >>>Kournikova gets lippy with judge == Tennis hottie Anna Kournikova threw a fit when a judge warned her for saying “Jesus Christ!” Tuesday night, while she played for the St. Louis Aces, against the Philadelphia Freedoms, during World Team Tennis play at the Pavilion at Villanova.  
    “You can’t say ‘Jesus Christ’? ” Kournikova shot back. “That’s a rule? Get the rule book, look it up! Jesus Christ!” she continued, confirms Comcast-Spectacor spokesman Ike Richman.  <<<
        

  • Barney Rubble

    Randor Township Zoning map (June 2010) 
     http://www.radnor.com/egov/docs/1276086945_649719.pdf  
    Villanova property is on lower right of the map (sky blue with “Pi” zoning code)  

  • Doctorfeelgoodes

    someone needs to personally visit each resident of radnor twp & “give them an offer they can’t refuse”. where is the spanish inquisition when you really need them???

  • Dave

    Q: As a frequent host/participant of athletic and academic events, does Villanova look to change the frequency and/or size of events it can host?
    A: Villanova is not planning to change the size, number or frequency of the events it hosts. 

  • Barney Rubble

    OPENING March 31st in Upper Merion Twp. 
    Valley Forge CASINO Resort & Convention Center  
    600 slots + 100 table games.  http://www.vfcasino.com/      

    When is the VUhoops convention this year?

    This is a Class 2 Casino in PA so you need a membership or you have to spend $10 in attached dining or retail outlets to be allowed on the gaming floor.  (Hotel guest or Conventioners receive unlimited use)   http://www.vfcasino.com/membership.asp

    What’s the over/under on how many Villanova students blow their tuition money at the Casino?
    Sort of like the Lehigh University Class President who robbed a local bank to pay gambling debts a few years ago.  He was son of a Minister and an Honor student.   

  • Dave

    At the same time we were getting the DuPont Pavilion on campus, UNC was putting in the Dean Dome.  We will never have that kind of push from the admin, nor the support from the locals.  I think it is only realistic to push for great training facilities on campus for football.  Shift more games to Wells Fargo.  Football games at PPL and the Linc.  And focus our efforts on a proactive push for Big East football.  The Lancaster Ave plan looks great and the PAC will benefit the University.  Unrelated to our sports issues though.

  • Robberbaron9

    I live in the area.  The residents are correct, the traffic and disruption for this project would be major.

  • Robberbaron9

    Two blocks, either way from the campus, you see million dollar homes.  There is affordable housing on lancaster avenue, but the homes behind and next to the school are owned by the mega affluent.

  • LM 92

    Dave,
    I would imagine UNC has a lot more $ at its disposal than we do.
    I agree with everything else you said, except, I’d still like to understand if it’s possible to expand the Pavilion from 6,500 to say 9,000…..that’s all we need. …..and couple that with football facility improvments.

  • Marc

    is it not possible to retrofit/expand the pavillion to make it 8,000-10,000 capacity?  change the roofline, move the court to the center of pavilion, etc.  

  • LM 92

    I could swear I heard that from more than one source when I was at school. ……that they built the Pavillion with the ability to expand it.  I posted several months ago when this subject came up…..on the topic:  It’s revenue generating: 2,500 additional seats at $25/game x 12 games = $750,000 year, and that’s probably the minimum you’d get from this. Heck, I’d even pay $5.00 for parking (that would be charged to non-students only)

  • Barney Rubble

    Over 3 years ago, VUhoops had a discussion led by Mike on the recommendations made to to Athletic Dept on what to to do with an “outdated” Pavillion.   This was the University’s own report out of the Master Plan stating the venue needed expansion or replacement.  

    http://vuhoops.com/2008/12/19/what-to-do-with-the-pavilion/  
        >>>The Athletics Department reports the following needs to be considered in any future renovation:
    Seating should be improved and, if possible, increased. A facility with between 8,000 and 9,000 seats would be ideal.    Increasing the seating in the Pavilion will add to the need for special events parking. By code, one parking space would be required for every 4 seats.    The pool requires renovation or replacement.   Locker rooms, including those for visiting teams, should be improved to meet Big East standards.   An officials’ locker room, with showers, should be added.    More points of sale for concessions are needed.    At least a two-lane practice running track should be added.   The audiovisual system was installed around 1992, and is outdated  <<<
    ———————————–

    Construction of the of the Pavillion roof - IMC Construction company
    http://www.imcconstruction.com/images/sectors/educational/vu-pavillion/vu-pavillion_ext_2_sm.jpg  

  • Dave

    Yes, unfortunately the Pavilion was already outdated when built in 1986.  8,000 or 9,000 seats should have been the minimum then and is too small today.

  • Dave

    Q: As a frequent host/participant of athletic and academic events, does Villanova look to change the frequency and/or size of events it can host?
    A: Villanova is not planning to change the size, number or frequency of the events it hosts.The University knows that it can’t get it through the township.  6,500 seats was the compromise in 1986, and per the Q&A above, they don’t plan on ruffling the township on a battle that they don’t think they will win.  Of course a 12,000 seat arena on campus would be great, I just don’t think it will happen.  Not even in the thought process, as you can see from their proposal on the main lot.

  • Dave

    Yep, and a 20,000+ Dean Dome type of facility is likely beyond reach.  But 6,500?  If we strive to be an elite program even a 9,000 venue from a remodeled ski lodge won’t cut it.  More games move to the Wells Fargo.  Not ideal.

  • Dave

    How about the 3 baseball fields area at Radnor High.  Do a land swap.  The ramp access from 476 could be easily modified for a direct dump into an Arena, effectively limiting the township traffic issues that prevent any building at Lancaster and Ithan.  

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    1 parking space to every 4 seats, means that a 40,000 seat stadium for football would require 10,000 parking spots. I doubt you can find room for that on campus, especially if you want to allow tailgating.

  • LM 92

    Non-related topic, but right now, having TCU leave and not be in the Big East is big negative headline avoided…..Big drug bust, 4 football players involved…..sounds like drug dealing, not just use
    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/tanner-brock-three-other-players-arrested-tcu-drug-175545577.html

  • Dave

    “Why Villanova can’t build an Arena / Stadium”.  Short Answer: Lack of desire and will.  I am not deluding myself that either an arena or stadium will be built on campus.  But where there is a will there is a way.  The will is not there.  But, if the desire and will were there for the Nova community, they could probably address the township concerns of traffic.  One possibility would be to use the dead land between the high speed line and 476, split in 2 parcels by the R5 train.  This land could be used for dedicated sports complex ramps from 476. Allow no other car access to appease the township.  2 rail lines support the complex.  The high speed line already has the Radnor station at the southern parcel already.  Build a basketball arena on west campus next to the soccer field (or on the soccer field site).  Connect the parking lots to the Arena under 476.  With the Arena on west campus, it is truly on campus for students.  If Carroll is available even more options and land.  Even enough land for a football stadium in either parcel with or without Carroll.  OK, I know it won’t happen, but there is a solution somewhere if the Nova community had a desire for it and a will to see it through.  

  • Sandy

    Nice job, this is land most of us drive by daily and don’t realize it is there.

  • Sandy

    LM 92 you are correct. the roof was supposedly made to be readily removed and seats added.

  • Barney Rubble

    That picture you posted shows the undeveloped plots I have been talking about but even closer to Rte 476 than those baseball fields…literally right up against the Highway is 2 large undeveloped plots of land that can not be developed for houses unless you eliminate the train tracks.. 
    The plot south of Paoli line track is surrounded by both Train tracks and Rte 476 HWY on alll sides.  It unuseable for anything but you could drop an Arena there abutting Rte 476.   If you look where the two train tracks intersect, you can see both plots.   The Zoning map shows the lower plot as PLU.   
    The matching undeveloped plot north of the Paoli Line is a large undeveloped buffer for residential properties and is zoned that way if I am reading the zoning map correctly. 

    The plot south of Paoli line track could fit 3 or 4 Pavillions which is more than enough for an 12K seat arena for Basketball/minor league hockey.   You can run the outer concourse of the arena over one or both of the  tracks and have stops right at the Arena.  There is nothing but commercial businesses, office space and the two High Schools over there so you aren’t affecting residential properties.  Parking can be done with a parking garage and taking advantage of some of the lots next door in the Office complex.   That’s the same thing they do at sports venues all over the country that are adjacent to office complexes.    

  • Jkelly3537

    Thanks Barney,

    Just an old guy taken in by those numbers. When I went to Bonner there were about 8,000 between Bonner and Prendergast. At thet time the football team would have been respectable in the Big 10.

  • Barney Rubble

    whoops just saw your next post after responding to the one further up.

    The FB property is what I have been referring to for months.   It’s unusable for residential and is zoned PLU.  
    Put the 12,000 seat WAWA ARENA there for basketball/minor league hockey and you have two trains and an off-ramp from I-476 delivering fans to the front door. . Plus it will seen from the Highway which is good publicity. 

    It’s a shame the old Wyeth property isn’t available because it’s an enormous piece of property with large Parking lots surrounding it.  
    Again, Villanova should have looked into that property when it was dumped a few years back.

  • Barney Rubble

    KYW-1060 just reported Radnor residents are objecting to “Dave” at VUhoops photo-shopping arenas and such on empty plots of land in THEIR township. 
    A resident meeting and public hanging are scheduled later this week. 

           ….oh and you’ve been blamed for the photoshopped “deer” problem. 

  • Villanovafan152

    Brian, do you think there is ever a chance that we will have an on campus stadium that could meet FBS requirements? 

  • Dave

    not the first time I pissed someone off…

  • Ailurophile

     Robber,

    Your comment is a non sequitur to both the proposal and jeff’s comment.   The proposal calls for building dorms for about 1100 students.  These are existing students, who currently live off campus, have their own cars, and drive the local roads to get to classes and student activities.   Living on campus eliminates the need for these 1100 students to drive to campus.   

    Pray tell:  how does eliminating the need for 1100 students to drive to campus to attend classes and activities add any traffic and disruption to other residents…let alone in a major way?  

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    I’m not sure you have enough room to put a Linc where you have football listed, and there may be engineering issues with the effect of excavation required to build the BB arena so close to those houses just above it.

    Also: do you have a scale see drawing of 10,000 parking spaces?

  • Dave

    Love the update on the comments from commissioners.  Commitment to cap enrollment?  Minimize impact on adjacent neighbors?  How about the positive economic impact as a leading township employer plus the ripple economy from the University.  As vocalALUM stated at the start of these comments, homeowners buy adjacent to a University and then don’t want school traffic, progress, and economic expansion?  I wonder if they tell Jefferson Health System to not grow their business so to minimize the effect on the township.  Anybody else live in an area that could use economic growth? 

  • Dave

    BB could be where the soccer field is, where I show it, or in the unused parcels mentioned.  Or on the Carroll site if it becomes available.  For a comparison an spaces, the space for parking would be multiples of the main lot without multi-level garages.  What is the main lot capacity?

  • Dave

    Brian, here is a comparison of the main lot to the parcels with references boxes for scale.  That said, I know this is a pipe dream and there is not interest in an on campus solution.  My point is if there was an interest in getting it done, I do believe there is a way.  West Campus still has a lot of space.  Soccer field area could be relocated, but that would not even be necessary.  A BB arena might have a long shot of interest.  FB stadium no shot I’m afraid.  Traffic is the township concern and there is a possible design solution.  Interest in doing it is a Nova community and admin issue.

  • Dave

    As another scale comparison, here is our current stadium pasted into one of the parcels.  I believe a 50K stadium could fit.  2 train lines with direct access to the site, direct access to 476 with traffic spillage to the township…

  • traffic cat

    i’m a traffic engineer, and this plan should be praised and supported by every single resident of Radnor. the peak travel periods will not be impacted much because most students are traveling during non-peak hours currently, but overall vehicular traffic on Lancaster will decrease throughout the entire day and help the Levels of Service throughout the community. there may be an increase of pedestrian volume crossing Lancaster, but probably not much during the peak period because the students will probably continue to cross for classes in the same way as they do now. either way, a tunnel, ped bridge, or skywalk would surely help eliminate conflicts, although students will continue to cross the street no matter what beacuse that will still be more conveniant to some of them. the proposed buildings themselves look amazing, and would also act as a traffic calming measure to help keep vehicular speeds down. overall, this project has huge benefits to both student and resident safety, as well as the obvious aesthetic benefits. i would love to see the next phase after this include a shared-use-path that wraps through West, Main and South Campuses…hopefully coinciding with an expansion of the Pavilion. any resident (who isn’t a slum lord) who opposes this project is a jerk who just doesn’t like the University…plain and simple. i really can’t think of a legitimate reason to oppose this project from the resident’s perspective. it’s a win-win for everyone.

  • Ailurophile

     The University has been a part of the community since 1842!   Do the “newcomers” to the community who are doing all the complaining acknowledge that fact?

    Brian,
    Do the current voting laws allow for students to register to vote based on their college address?  Maybe it is time for faculty members or local alumni to run for Board of Commissioners and ask students, faculty, and staff to register and support them.   Also, as local residents, they can also show up to the public meetings and express support.

  • Dave

    31,000 in Radnor Township.  About 2/3 of voting age, so ~20,000.  Nova community ~10,000.  Could make a difference.

  • traffic cat

    unfortunately, these solutions would require somewhere in the range of $200-250mil of private $ and probably 10-15 years to plan and construct…you’re talking about adding ramps to the Blue Route for the prime reason of stadiums (which by the way took 62 years from concept to completion as well as 24 years of actual construction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Route ). not gonna happen. we can’t even get tolls on I-80 to help pay for functionally deficient bridges…we’re not stadiums for functionally deficient teams. let’s pull our effort into making PPL the permanent home of Wildcat football…and expand the freakin’ Pavilion a couple more thousand so people who have been on the wait list for 10 years can finally get some tickets.

  • Villanovafan152

    if only u were the voice of the people of Radnor, then we could already have a fbs stadium on campus

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    If you excavated at the Ithan/Lancaster intersection and built tunnels to allow pedestrians to cross under the road, I think it would be quicker than waiting for the light and people would use it — especially if you built it so that people could cross diagonally.

    If you built an overhead crossing from the “rape trail, past the new construction and over to near the church, I think students would use that too. Students already have to walk up stairs to cross over the R100 tracks from the rape trail, so just extend the new raised walkway from there.

    You could dramatically decrease the number of people crossing and affecting traffic.

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    Thought I responded to this… answer is Yes, Villanova could probably get VU Stadium to a very barebones 15,000 seats. Nobody would be happy with it and you really need 30-40 thousand seats (which won’t happen) to be in the Big East or another major conference.

  • Dave

    Traffic Cat – Agreed.  It’s not going to happen.  No interest for on campus.
    Q: As a frequent host/participant of athletic and academic events, does Villanova look to change the frequency and/or size of events it can host?A: Villanova is not planning to change the size, number or frequency of the events it hosts. 

  • Ailurophile

     Dave,

    Assuming your numbers to be correct, may I suggest the following adjustment factors (i.e.: subtractions) to the 20,000 number:

    -   the number of faculty/admin/staff included in this number,  plus spouses and adult children;

    -   adult children who are attending other schools or military service out of the area;

    -   local contractors and businessmen who expect to bid on the construction or gain business upon completion;

    -   unemployed who see potential employment opportunities;

    -   those associated with other schools or organizations in the township which have experienced similar difficulty which their own construction/expansion projects;

    -   the percentage of those not included in one of the above adjustments who either favor or do not object to the proposal;

    -   the percentage of those who regularly do not vote.

    If then, the current voting laws do allow students to register to vote using their school addresses, the influence could be dramatic.

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    What Villanova should Ideally do, is find ways to encourage alums to move back to the area. Offer various services, lectures… maybe one free class per semester for every alum over 50 with a Radnor Twp address? Stack the community with pro-Nova people.

  • 89′er

    Villanova needs to start acquiring property around it’s campus for future expansion of all sorts, athletic and academic.  Specifically, start purchasing the homes behind John Barry Hall across Rt 320 on Hilldale and Ashwood Roads, and along County Line and Wistar Roads.   I know the homes around Villanova are zoned as residential, but zoning laws can be changed.  These neighborhoods are perfect for a football stadium, hockey rink, even a new baseball field as they are bounded on all sides by the railroad, 476, and Villanova’s campus.  Modernize the train station at Villanova to handle the large crowds, plus build exit ramps right onto 476.  This strategy would be slow and would most likely not benefit our generation in the short-term, but we must be long-term thinkers.  The university needs to expand and grow otherwise it risks slipping into irrelevance.  All they need is money, a strong will, and a grand vision.  Oh, and in the short-term the Pavilion should be demolished and rebuilt into a 13,000 (2 X 6,500) seat field house in the mold of Kansas’s Allen Field House.  That College Gameday vs Pitt last year was embarrassing for the university, whether the administration is aware of it or not.  Money from the new field house should help w/ the long-term land acquisition strategy I’ve proposed.
    Villanova also desparately needs retail space on it’s campus.  Someplace to go for coffee or a hamburger other than the Connolly Center.  That is the most drab campus ever! 

  • 89′er

     Tunnels would be best, especially during inclement weather.  They don’t need to shovel or salt a tunnel.

  • 89′er

     I like your thinking Dave.  Where there’s a will there’s a way.  The Villanova administration doesn’t have the stomach for such large, grandiose plans, because deep down they are just educators and priests.  We need a Mark Cuban to be president of the University.

  • 89′er

     If you look at that map you attached Dave, what is the one piece of land that perfectly fits into the footprint of the Villanova campus?  Hilldale and Ashwood Rds!  I know it’s a residential neighborhood, but Nova should start buying it hand over fist.  If not for a football stadium or basketball arena, they should buy it for some future academic or residential need.  All land can be rezoned.  If not, buy the houses and level them until the rest of the residents sell!  Then let the lots sit vacant until the town plays ball.  That area is also perfect because it is bounded by I-476, the SEPTA, and Villanova.

  • 89′er

     A 4 or 5 story parking deck should do.  Also a new or refurbished train station on west campus would help also.  Encourage fans to take the train to games.  I take the train to games at the Meadowlands, Yankee Stadium, Citi Field, and MSG.  Tailgating is overrated!  Tailgating should go back to Sheehan Beach and the Quad anyway.

  • 89′er

    I was a freshman when the Pavilion opened.  It was obsolete on the drawing board!  I was disappointed when it first opened.  Upperclassmen used to tell tales of how it was built to be expanded.  So sad.  Nova can’t get out of it’s own way.  

  • 89′er

     The Pavilion needs to be razed, it’s an embarrassment.  Did you not watch college gameday last year vs Pitt.  Jay Bilas politely called it a gym.  10 days ago Missouri and Kansas played on college gameday in front of 15,000 frenzied fans in Columbia, MO.  Villanova is the minor leagues when it comes to athletic facilities, and then we hide our students behind the basket.  What can you expect, priests run the school.  It’s a disgrace.  If Jay Wright ever leaves this program we are in huge trouble.  What other big time coach would want this job?

  • 89′er

     No!  I have absolutely no opposition to a performing arts center being built on the Villanova campus.  That campus was the most dull place on earth to be trapped without a car.  There is little to do on campus aside from study or play basketball.  And there is no place to walk for entertainment or food as the entire University is surrounded by residential neighborhoods.  Please build a PAC on campus.  Maybe one day ‘Nova can shed it’s well deserved moniker Villa-no-fun.

  • traffic cat

    agreed…you could definitely reduce a lot of the crossing by adding tunnels and/or a bridge. the tunnel would probably have to be like the one crossing the Amtrack tracks though because you won’t be able to get the profile below Lancaster unless you start it somewhere down Ithan where it’s not conveniant. So, really, a ped bridge would be the same as a tunnel because there are steps involved, but a bridge is much easier to construct here. there are still going to be people who refuse to use them because they either see there’s a walk signal, don’t like to go through tunnels, or don’t feel like walking up steps. i see people in my building use the elevator to go up 1 flight of stairs…sad, but true. the reality is, i don’t think it matters because right now there’s a parking lot where all these juniors and seniors park and cross the street already, so will building dorms here really impact the safety? in my professional opinion, no. most of the crossings will occur during non-peak hours, so even though the # of trips over Lancaster will increase, i don’t see a new threat to safety here. by all means, add a tunnel and/or bridge though. it would definitely be a great addition.

  • 89′er

     Offer ticketholders a discount on game tickets and a rail pass.  Encourage a large number to take the train.  I live in NYC, I take the train almost everywhere.  I’m sure most alumni from NY would take Amtrak to campus games.

  • 89′er

     So true Dave.  ‘Nova just doesn’t think big when it comes to it’s athletic facilities.  If it did, our baseball team wouldn’t have ever played it’s home games at Ritchie Ashburn Park in south Philly or at The Ballpark in Plymouth Meeting as it currently does.  No matter how bad our football and basketball facilities are, at least they are on campus.  And why don’t we have a hockey team?  At least a club hockey team.

  • Barney Rubble

    89′er,  Villanova DOES HAVE a Ice Hockey CLUB team.
    They even played outdoors at Citizen Bank Park this year vs Drexel. 

    They are a M1 team in the ACHA.  They aren’t very good this year but were OK last year and made a run in the playoffs at the end of the year.
    I think Stony Brook team is the powerhouse in their League but not sure. .

    http://villanova.goalline.ca/ 
     http://villanova.goalline.ca/show_team_results.php?team_id=12889

  • Barney Rubble

    From reading some of the past comments, I think it’s Radnor Twp that requires 1 parking spot for every 4 seats.    No way around it.  They clearly  have those rules in place to dissuade any big venues. 
     
    Train routes into the venue are very important but a 10,000 seat Venue must have access to 2500 legitimate Parking spots to past muster with Radnor unless I am misunderstanding their requirement. .

  • Barney Rubble

    I believe from last tour a couple of years ago that St Joe’s now has pedestrian bridge across City Line Avenue from their new Campus.  

    Throw in some speed bumps on Lancaster and really piss off the locals. lol

  • Barney Rubble

    Specific Retail space is built into the Lancaster Avenue project.   They are putting stores and food space for students, alumni and guests but dont want it to be a destination stop for outsiders.    Lehigh did something similar in their expansion project in buying up impoverished southside Bethlehem and putting new student housing with retail space on bottom floor.  The restaurants actually have signs that describe the cafes as Student Alternative Meal restaurants so they probably use their Campus ID/Voucher cards at these places.  

    I agree with you that Villanova did not take advantage of Past Opportunities in buying land around the campus.  But other than a couple of adjacent properties, Radnor won’t stand for Villanova taking out a developed neighborhood and they hold the school by the gonads on these expansion issues. 
    I think you are underestimating Radnor’s resolve not to change zoning for anything that Villanova proposes.   They are in control and sadly will remain so for a long time. 
    If Villanova was in NORTH Philly, we would get plenty of political support to buy up the crap in the badlands and develop it.  But on Mainline, that is not happening with residential areas.   I think the best argument to present them is to find land that is NOT able to be developed for residences and serves the Township no use at present.

    I agree with you that any venue build near Villanova that is built has to be tied into the Paoli Line traiin route.

    Athletic and Entertainment venues get the most political support when they are in crappy areas near rivers, dilapidated impoverished neighborhoods, former industrial property and contaminated lands.  
    Bethlehem has a freaking CASINO built over the land that used to hold the historic Bethlehem Steel Plant that employed thousands of steel workers for decades. They land is so full of cancer causing materials that it was worthless for any normal public use so they stick a Casino there. 
    Downtown Allentown is a crime ridden cesspoool  so politicians pulled eminent domain out of their pockets and will drop a $90M minor league Hockey Arena into a low income neighborhood under the control of the Latin Kings and other violent gangs.  People begged them to put it in a suburban neighborhood but that wouldn’t cover up the urban blight and bring faux jobs to the downtown for the politicians to tout. 

  • Barney Rubble

    Dave, if I am reading that Radnor zoning map correctly, the two plots on Carroll side of Rte 476 are zoned differently.  The one North of Paoli Line is residential zoned probably as a planned buffer since they aren’t going to ever build any houses right next to a Hwy.   Not sure they would allow Parking garage there as an potential eyesore in the views of the 18th century residents. 

    The plot South of Paoli Line that you had labeled FB  is zoned PLU and likely won’t be developed for commercial use that close to the Hwy unless it’s something odd. 
    Putting the 12,000 seat WAWA Arena there would fit and space allows an accompanying small parking garage plus use of some of the existing Parking in the Office complex.   Again the train tracks from both directions can be left to run under an Arena outer concourse which deliver fans directly to the venue.   (Isnt that how the original Boston Garden wa started) 

    Having a venue across the HWY from campus would allow for use by professional tenants and not interfere with student life.  
    The more tenants, the more viability an Arena has. 
    AHL or ECHL franchises could do very well with the affluent suburban population on Mainline, ValleyForge, north into Montgomery County and west on Rte 30 all having Hockey interest in their communities.
    How about a possible D-League basketball franchise sharing a Venue?
    KIXX Soccer has been on hiatus for 2 seasons but they took a turn downward when Spectrum closed and they went to Licaurus Arena since spectrum closed.  .   .

    I agree with everyone that most of this is all pretty much a pipe dream but someday my great-great-great -great grandchild will be sitting in the WAWA Arena watching Jehovah Wright III (this is post Nuclear War and kentucky/Duke didn’t survive)  coach Villanova to a Championship in Ballistic Hoops.  

  • Damost

    Not really.  You can use an off campus venue for other events.  PPL is not on campus.  If Nova had built a stadium first then Nova could be renting to the Union. If Nova had a venue Manayunk would people not go to Manayunk for a concert,  graduation or sports?    I think they would go and they would actually get more people to attend events in Manayunk.

    I even suggested the Union stadium should have been built in the city with either Nova or Temple.    Rendell was an idiot.  He was more interested in lining his own pockets than improving the city and region.   

    The Union is a regional team.  They could have drawn fans just about anywhere in or around the city.   That stadium could have been in N. Philly near Liacouras,   Northern Liberties,   South Philly(Navy Yard),  Lancaster AVe,   Manayunk(old Carmens site sitting empty),   Conshy,   Norristown or Chestnut Hill(old spring garden colllege).  

    Nova and/or Temple could have both used the stadium for football.    Nova and Temple could still share a stadium in Manayunk.   My first choice would be an on campus stadium but if that is not possibel then I would look off campus.  Other events could be held in Manayunk.  I think Manayunk would be a draw.

  • Damost

    Not really.  You can use an off campus venue for other events.  PPL is not on campus.  If Nova had built a stadium first then Nova could be renting to the Union. If Nova had a venue Manayunk would people not go to Manayunk for a concert,  graduation or sports?    I think they would go and they would actually get more people to attend events in Manayunk.

    I even suggested the Union stadium should have been built in the city with either Nova or Temple.    Rendell was an idiot.  He was more interested in lining his own pockets than improving the city and region.   

    The Union is a regional team.  They could have drawn fans just about anywhere in or around the city.   That stadium could have been in N. Philly near Liacouras,   Northern Liberties,   South Philly(Navy Yard),  Lancaster AVe,   Manayunk(old Carmens site sitting empty),   Conshy,   Norristown or Chestnut Hill(old spring garden colllege).  

    Nova and/or Temple could have both used the stadium for football.    Nova and Temple could still share a stadium in Manayunk.   My first choice would be an on campus stadium but if that is not possibel then I would look off campus.  Other events could be held in Manayunk.  I think Manayunk would be a draw.

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    Manayunk people might go, but a 30,000 seat stadium won’t book many concerts. Too big for smaller acts and too small for bigger acts. You won’t beat out the Linc and Wells Fargo for many events.

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    Or, just make the bridge connect two buildings. Going to the second floor of Bartley? Leave from the second floor of ______ Hall. That’s basically what St. Joes did with their pedestrian bridge over City Line. 

    The St. Joes bridge also looks pretty nice and is an opportunity for the university to slap a very public logo over a roadway. http://www.llra.net/p_stjmcs.html

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    The building code says you have to prove 1 parking spot for every 4  seats. No way around that.

  • http://twitter.com/Brian_Ewart Brian Ewart

    Well, part of the new construction would add some entertainment and food options. I think the closest bars will still be Kellys and the Bar-Formerly-Known-As-The-Onion. 

  • FaN78

    What about Mixx, home of the Andy Talley and, I think, Jay Wright radio shows.  In the shoppping center at 320 and 30.  That’s the closest – if its still open.

  • Buckeye70

    All I would suggest to the Township opponents is this — visit 3 campuses of comparable status — Boston College, Notre Dame, Northwestern University. All are in heavy residential areas — NU is
    on the north side of Evanston, with plenty of super major pricey homes nearby, along with more
    middle-class housing. Notre Dame is in a Township, as is Villanova. Both the Radnor Township
    decision-makers and Villanova’s representatives should visit and see how ND and Penn Township handle campus/locals issues. BC is in a far more crowded area than Villanova,
    I think, and they were not only able to get a 26,000 seat football stadium up years ago, but
    enlarge it to the 44,500 capacity of today. The cramped-in housing of Newton, Chestnut
    Hill and Brookline and the residents’ concerns get taken care of there.

    So who cares if Grosvenor Von Upsnoot III, (pick your Ivy) Class of ’77, hates Villanova?
    Who died and told him to move next to a major national university and then try to retard
    its progress?

    Seriously, it is time they have a day of reckoning and Villanova gets its needs addressed.

    That is all.

    ‘Nova70

  • 89′er

     Thank you for that info Barney Rubble, I was unaware.  And thanks for the links, they’re much appreciated.

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